DKP for PvP.

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DKP for PvP.

Post  aiten on Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:55 am

I dont agree with this i feel that the pvp gear you get through the pvp is enough of a reward without rewarding the ability to buy pve items as well.

If it is a matter of making people show up on time and encouraging people to do the pvp events i find that a bit odd. If you need dkp incentives to sign up for pvp then should you even be signing up?

If i ever lose out to someone on an item by 1 dkp because they went to the pvp event and i did not i will be very pissed...

An alternative is to just make the events fun. People sign up they goto the first one. provide a nice friendly pvp atmosphere and im sure they will turn up on time for the next week.

Oh and there are some people who only pvp. Why would they even care if they get dkp? Will that encourage them to show up on time?
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Sandy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:35 am

I honestly can't see why you have such a problem with people getting one measly dkp for what is just as much a raid as when we go to black temple. You sign up, participate and you are expected to stay to the end. Yes, you can buy stuff for honor, but what about the more pvp oriented players who already have all the honor stuff? These are the people that increase the chance of victory for the whole team and as such are the ones you want to have on your team, just like black temple raids will want as many rr3 as possible.
If a person has the time to attend all raids, maniac mondays included, should they not be getting more dkp than someone less active.
PvP can also teach you a lot about your class and i believe that many of our PvE oriented players can learn much from this aspect of the game (well, arena gives more, but random battlegrounds can also include some epic figths). There is no script in pvp and therefore you learn to think on your own, react to the things that happen. This is a good thing, especially as the pve fights we encounter become increasingly difficult and advanced.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Sessifet on Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:01 am

First I'll just quote myself from the other thread, since I cannot be arsed to write the same stuff again giggle

Sessifet wrote:We tried it without DKP in the start, but people are to slacking, we usually had to wait like half an hour to show up. And the only way we have to reward/penalize people for participating in the PvP events is to use DKP.

If you look at the amount of SKP you can earn from PvE, the 1 DKP you can earn for joining the PvP isn't that much:
3 X signup bonuses: 6 DKP
8 bosses: 8 DKP
2 X progress bonus: 2 SKP (this is ofc only if we don't take down a new bonus on the tuesday raids, and if we take a boss there is ofc. the 5 DKP bonus for taking a new boss)

all in all 15 DKP.

So a raider who participates in all the PvE raids and the PvP raid will earn 6,66% more DKP than you if you sign up for all the PvE raids, if you don't have the time to sign up for all PvE raids, you are ofc. going to earn alot less DKP than the ones who sign up for everything. But then you also have to compare yourself to the people who do not sign up for everything, and the main reason to not sign for everything is lack of time, so if someone prioritize one PvP raid over one PvE raid, they are going to earn less DKP than you.

But ofc. if you can come up with a better solution to reward/panalize people for the PvP raids we are all ears beer

Edit: sorry for discussing in your thread Torsyg Frantic

If it is a matter of making people show up on time and encouraging people to do the pvp events i find that a bit odd. If you need dkp incentives to sign up for pvp then should you even be signing up?
I'm pretty much guessing that if we didn't have the not ontime penalty for PvE raids people would be late all the time, this has nothing to do with what the currency for the penalty is, just something in human nature Frantic Believe me if it was possible to make the penalty in gold instead we would do it, but as it is, DKP is the only option we have for giving a penalty, so this has nothing to do with what the dkp is used for.


If i ever lose out to someone on an item by 1 dkp because they went to the pvp event and i did not i will be very pissed...
I'm really sorry but there is nothing really we can do about this, if that is how the guild rules are, then everbody has to abide by them, and it is impossible to satisfy everybody. And you can also look at it like this, the PvPing helps to gear up our raiders, which again means more progress and less wipes during PvE raids. And honestly loosing an item by 1 DKP isn't the end of the world, the item still goes to someone who will help on the other raids, and it most likely also means that next time you will get the item alot cheaper. And yes I know that WoW is all about gearing up and making you character better, so it is annoying not to have the best items yourself Frantic

An alternative is to just make the events fun. People sign up they goto the first one. provide a nice friendly pvp atmosphere and im sure they will turn up on time for the next week.
The PvP event have the same atmosphere as a PvE raid, then you can always argue if it is friendly and people are having fun giggle But I'm pretty sure that if we removed the penalties for the PvE raids we would see people being late, not showing up, and leaving before time alot more often.

Oh and there are some people who only pvp. Why would they even care if they get dkp? Will that encourage them to show up on time?
We don't have that many people who only PvP, and besides they can still use their DKP to buy stuff from the guild bank.

/Sessi

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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Sessifet on Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:08 am

Sandy wrote: i believe that many of our PvE oriented players can learn much from this aspect of the game (well, arena gives more, but random battlegrounds can also include some epic figths). There is no script in pvp and therefore you learn to think on your own, react to the things that happen. This is a good thing, especially as the pve fights we encounter become increasingly difficult and advanced.

Very good point clap , why didn't I think of that Sexyfat

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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  aiten on Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:17 am

Im guessing the reason why i have such opposition is because your the people who are going to be attending these pvp events and therefore will be getting the benefit. I have done my pvp, i got to rank 11 in the old school wow on my hunter and i never want to do it again unless forced to for the pvp trinket or my off hand sword.

Why not just take away the 1 dkp for coming and then keep the -1 for not showing up and stuff. that has the same effect and would keep purely pve players happy.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  aiten on Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:20 am

Sandy wrote:for what is just as much a raid as when we go to black temple.

What sandy? I agree with what you say most of the time and that is why i voted for you to be guild officer but seriously? a pvp event is as much a raid as going to BT? oO
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Sessifet on Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:34 am

we have discussed the solution about only giving penalties, and we came to the conclusion that it will destroy the PvP events, people wont sign up, if the only thing about signing up is that you risk getting a penalty. They will much rather not sign, and then just hang around hoping that they get a spot, which again leads to cancelled raids and no PvP.

These are exactly the same reason we added signup and confirmation bonus to the PvE raids.


I also got the Commander rank in the old system and yes it really really sucked giggle But as I said in my other post, you are also going to get the benefits of our raiders getting PvP gear, since it is going to help on our progress, their is a limit to how fast we can gear up people, and with around 50 active raiders it does take alot of time to raise the gear lvl. PvP raises the gear lvl so much faster since so many people gets new gear at the same time. And it is also a way for people to get the honor for getting the PvP trinket. But yes you are right, you wont get any benefits directly.

And personally I have alot of work currently so I only have a limited amount of time to use on WoW, so I will have to chose between the PvP and PvE raids, and if I go on a PvP raid it means that I do gain less DKP than I would otherwise.

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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Sandy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:35 am

I don't mean it in that way aiten, i mean that it is treated like any other raid. There are signups on the dkp site, you have to stay the full duration and all the relevant raid rules apply. It isn't fair that there is a potential penalty without a potential reward. For the pvp officers to be able to penalize someone for being late etc. there has to be an upside otherwise there is no point in having it.
I can understand that you are done with pvp and can easily respect that, but the fact is that many other people enjoy pvp, are you really that selfish that you want to remove one the technicallities that allows our new officers to run it smoothly? I remember the old pvp events and before there was dkp involved, people came and went when they pleased and it was VERY frustrating for those of us that stayed for the whole "raid" that there was always somebody leaving. Because of the nature of the BG events, it is very easy to leave after a victory or a chain of loses to another premade. I was so pleased when the dkp part was added and it really did make a difference. I'm not saying that it necesarily will be as bad as it was if the dkp is removed, but why risk it? It's a small tool that allows for the pvp-leader to ensure a fun evening for everyone involved.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  aiten on Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:00 pm

Its not about me being selfish its about pvp being seperate from pve.

Sure give the pvpers benefits for coming to pvp events but dont let it influence the pve aspect of the guild. they are seperate.

One thing someone suggested to me was having a different sort of currency that would allow the people who turn up to the pvp events to buy stuff from the bank. So coming to a pvp event would give you 2 Gbank points or something and then after gaining some you can buy the things that are otherwise only avalible for PvE people. I dont mind them doing this since it has no effect on the pve game.

These would be void crystals, recipes and epic gems. They have just as much a right to these items as i do however in my opinion they do not have as much a right to things that drop in pve encounters.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Sandy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:14 pm

Should PvP gear then also be banned from the raider rank requirements? You cannot draw a line and have everything be either black or white. It is a huge amount of administrative work to set up an entirely new currency system over something as trivial as 1 dkp.
Should we have a guild vote perhaps? I see no other way of settling this properly as this discussion can either continue into the next year or untill an officer decides to veto it and say "this is how it is, end of discussion".
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  aiten on Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:25 pm

The amount of dkp actually is irrelevant to me it is that it is given at all. I have seen wow go from pve centric to a mix of the two and i have largely been able to stay away from pvp and stick which pve because the rewards used to be mainly for pvp however there is now a crossover where items from pvp are alright for pve. This crossover is something i dont want. I like that there is pvp in the guild but i stay away from it. why should it suddenly affect me when we are (unless you think differently) a pve centric guild.

I know you keep asking me to come up with an alternative but im not the person to ask. What do the pvpers want as a benefit? And if they want dkp then its like me asking to get a pve epic every time i do 15 AV games or something.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Sandy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:54 pm

Yes most of our guildies spend most of their time with pve related things, but from day one this guild has not been one over the other. There are posts all the way back to the beginning to prove this (although i'm to lazy to start digging).
I agree that currently this feels like a pve guild, but that is mainly because our raid officers are doing an insanely good job, while our former pvp officers got caught up in real life and never managed to build further on all the ground work they made in the beginning. We have many players who's main focus is pvp and the guild should (and will) cater to their needs as well, so of course you will be affected as a member of this guild.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  aiten on Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:02 pm

By all means cater to their needs but how is giving pvp players dkp catering to their needs? Pvp players dont need dkp...
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Serbiansword on Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:07 pm

Ok ppl, I play PVP because I L O V E it, not because I will get that silly 1 DKP. I think that we shouldn't get any DKP at all for PVP activities because, as Aiten said, it can happen that I outbid him for some item just becasue I was saving some DKP + I got some from PVP.
So, PVP Isn't just about the gear, PVP is about FUN and that adrenaline rush when you have godlike chain kills with just 10% of your HP!
If ppl will sign for PVP just in order to get that 1 DKP, well screw that because it will RUIN the spirit of PVP.

NO DKP FOR PVP, I LUV YOU AITEN!
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Torsyg on Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:09 pm

PvP does affect PvE, since many people gear up with PvP items. This means that they need on fewer of the PvE items and hence in that way also speed up the gearing of people who do not want to do PvP. For a lot of bosses it is also a good thing to have a lot of HP which means that PvP items are really good for some PvE fights. The things you learn in PvP can also benefit people in PvE. We do not do much The Eye and SSC and therefore we have a gap in gearing that can be crossed with PvP items. All in all PvPing in the guild has a lot to offer and does affect the PvEing and PvE progression of the guild.

Also in PvE raids you can get DKP for doing absolutely nothing (sign-up DKP). We do that not because it is fair, but because it helps the raiding. In the same way we have a minimum of DKP for the PvP events, because it makes everything work better, and as I explained above it can (and does) actually also help the PvE progression.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Sessifet on Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:56 pm

No one ever said we were a PvE guild, we are a social guild. Yes we do enjoy alot of PvE'ing, the only reason that we haven't been PvP'ing for a long time, is due to some changes in the BG queue time which caused long queue times for premades, this collided with the PvP officers being extremely busy with IRL stuff. I am the first to admit that we as officers should have acted on this a long time ago, and alot of the blame is actually to be put on me blush sorry

But there is a reason that we have PvP officers and raid officers, and we don't see PvE as more important than PvP or the other way around.

And as much as you dont like it, it is impossible to separate PvE and PvP in WoW. If you don't see the 1 DKP a week as a problem, then try to look upon DKP as a guild currency, not a PvE currency. Yes atm. we only use DKP in PvE raids, but I actually think that last time we discussed this decided to introduce DKP as a guild wide thing, which doesn't only affect raids. That we haven't had anything else to use it on for these past months, doesn't change this. And yes I can see that calling it DKP can be misleading since in many raiding guilds DKP is only used for buying Epics on raids. But it would also be silly to call it for PLP (Phoenix Legends Points) since we would have to explain it for every recruit. With the loss of PvP several months ago the focus of the guild moved to raiding, and I think much of what we discussed back then was forgotten, but this does not mean that we shouldn't try to correct this.

It can be that we in the future want to use DKP for something else, but atm. we don't want to use to many places, since it is hard to keep track of anybody abusing the system and earning easy DKP. The point is that DKP reflect the amount of time a persons puts into the guild, and it is not easier to earn DKP on a PvP raid than on a PvE raid. The easiest way to earn DKP today is to keep an eye on the raidcalendar and signing up for all the raids that doesn't have many people signed up the day before.

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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  aiten on Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:59 pm

I can only speak from experience but the only items i would consider using as a rogue that is pvp is the off hand. that is 1 or 2 days of doing some AV.

If i were to go for anything else it would be arena obtained gear and that isnt anything to do with these events.

I wouldnt take a full merciless to a heroic let alone a BT raid so honestly i dont see why we are gearing people up with merciless.

And i find the argument that people would improve their pve game doing pvp wrong. I still top 5 most encounters and ive only been pve combat build and pretty much only AV.

Playing a rogue in pvp is completely different to pve and honestly the mechanics you learn playing as a pve one is completely different.

Thankyou serbian that is also a very valid point. do you want pve people who want that extra 1 dkp (yes people would do it) coming to the pvp events?

*Written during sessis last post*

sessi does this mean that our guilds focus is going to switch from pve to a mix of both and therefore pve suffer as a result? Since i joined we have had no pvp events so i have only known it as a pve guild.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  gnomolt on Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:10 pm

now i have not read through it all 100% but to me it seems like an unnecesary idea to bring +dkp into PVP stuff. why should they be awarded for staying a whole evening? why should they be awarded for killing ppl a whole night in premades? it is'nt like that is as hard as making 25 ppl learn 1 stupid tactic where the boss got some random element whiping us a whole night.


beside of that, if ppl dont get on time ban them for the next weeks pvp event or as it was said earlier, give them -1dkp. Although giving +dkp to a pvper for attending a PVP raid for the full time sounds to me like pvp is a dead thing, cause it seems that if ppl dont get rewared with "pve buy item money" aka dkp, they wont go pvp. if ppl WANT to go pvp let them do it for the sake of getting HONOR and marks, not dkp.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Sessifet on Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:12 pm

I don't see why PvE should suffer, we have always kept the mondays for PvP, the only difference is that Sarr and Ipo have used them for the loot mobile during the absence of PvP raids. And we will still have 5 very active raid officers that won't change their focus. The difference is that we now also have 3 active PvP officers who's main focus will be PvP (atleast their administrative focus, they will ofc. still be joining our raids rooting ). Just because we fill a hole and put more focus on PvP doesn't mean that will be less focus on PvE. But on an overall picture yes PvE won't be our only focus anymore.

And sorry about my posts, I'm currently at work, so they take along time to write, so somebody else might have written the same as me giggle

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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Sessifet on Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:15 pm

gnomolt wrote:beside of that, if ppl dont get on time ban them for the next weeks pvp event or as it was said earlier, give them -1dkp. Although giving +dkp to a pvper for attending a PVP raid for the full time sounds to me like pvp is a dead thing, cause it seems that if ppl dont get rewared with "pve buy item money" aka dkp, they wont go pvp. if ppl WANT to go pvp let them do it for the sake of getting HONOR and marks, not dkp.

Well then we might as well remove signup bonus, not ontime penalty, not fulltime penalty from the PvE raids, because if people cannot meet at a certain time, or stay an entire evening without it reflecting on their DKP, then they won't do it?

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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  gnomolt on Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:20 pm

i see it like this.

PVP raid rewards: honor and marks.

PVE raid rewards: DKP for staying a night whiping on a boss progressing, dkp for actually signing for a whipe party on a progress boss, dkp. not ontime penalty should be both places as it makes 24 other ppl wait for 1 person or more. same with not staying the whole night, getting penalty for that is fine as that again makes 24 ppl wait for getting a replacement for that specific class which may not happen at all making the raid setup worse.

all in all, pvp=honor and marks, pve=epix loot from hard bosses and dkp.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Sessifet on Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:28 pm

So try to look at this way:

DKP = Phoenix Legends currency given to people who in some way helps the guild, and can be used to by epics and stuff (Yes I know that it is mostly used to buy epics on raids)

PvE raid rewards: Having fun, seeing new parts of the game, getting a chance to get new epics

PvP raid rewards: Having fun, honor, badges, pwning some hordes.

When you say that if people wont sign up for PvP raids without some kind of carrot then PvP is dead, then it is exactly the same argument as saying, if people don't sign up on raids where we don't down anything, just to learn a fight and get more experience, then PvE id dead.

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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Sandy on Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:32 pm

Noone has said that the pvp events are limited to fucking around in warsong gulch. Back in the day an idea arose of horde city raids once a month, with tactics as to how to deal with both a boss and the horde players present (rather like adds on bossfights isn't it) to read up on and lots of preparation made by the pvp officers. Just to compare to our current pve content, Shade of Akama is a boss that has to be killed by some while other players take care of the incoming adds, am I the only that thinks these two things are alike?
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  gnomolt on Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:35 pm

yes, but that currency is used to buy bank items or stuff in a raid. in a raid you get rewarded with currency for joining in, staying the whole raid, killing bosses and such. it is much like "working and getting payed". in pvp it is different though, you dont get some player controlled currency awarded there to buy stuff. there you get this currency called "honor/marks" instead of "dkp".


as to what you just wrote sandy, yes thoose raids can award dkp but ONLY thoose raids. they are a lot different than doing premade EoTS, WSG, AV and AB. attending a PVP event (not premade) is something to be rewarded by.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Khadijah on Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:07 pm

Aiten, if you give the PVPmondays a chance, you might love it. Guildruns to hordecamps (Silvermoon/Undercity or Tarren Mill, bring it! Remember Thunder Bluff anyone? <3) is THE best times I've had with this guild ingame.

DKP for PVP - conceptually or monetary wrong?

1) Concept: you're right, you can't spend DKP during a PVPraid. That's the difference between PVP and PVE. It's like calling for monetary imbalance, which leads us to
2) Sum of values: The whole deal is about carrots, punishments and rewards. The punishments are the same sizes, but the carrot is much smaller for PVPraids than PVEraids. The rewards are the same as well (honorpoints/badges, same principle) bar the bossdrops.


I can't help but think that this will bring so much joy, experiences and practice to our guildies, that it's worth that extra dkp someone MIGHT bid against you cause they spent 3 hours in WSG. I never noticed if I pay 44 or 45 DKP for something, I doubt anyone else does either. I'm a hardcore raider with insane attendance and few drops bought, and still I use my dkp for shattrath flasks. dkp is made to be used, and this is what it should be used for!

There, some more (imo) common sense in the soup big grin


And for the sake of spam, I doubt Ill sign for PVPraids, cause I don't want to loose dkp if I'm late. I'd rather put myself up as unsure and hope for a spot. itkiss
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Khadijah
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Re: DKP for PvP.

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