DKP for PvP.

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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Sessifet on Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:10 pm

gnomolt wrote:yes, but that currency is used to buy bank items or stuff in a raid. in a raid you get rewarded with currency for joining in, staying the whole raid, killing bosses and such. it is much like "working and getting payed"

Well yes and no. DKP is a system that ensures that the most active raiders gets the loot, you might choose to look upon it as you do some work and then get paid, but do you get paid if you stay there for an entire day, or meet up in the morning?

In PL you get DKP when you participates to the guilds progress, that being taking down a boss, spending time learning the mechanics of a boss, or helping other people to gear up. And getting items from PvP will help us progress, season 4 honor items is still good in end-game raiding, and getting people to replace karazhan/SSC/The Eye epics with these will help us alot in BT and MH. So if people help others guildie to get some of them, ofc. they should be rewarded for it.

And Serbiansword even though you would do the PvP raids without getting any DKP for it, you will still be a great help to have in a PvP raid, since you have more experience with PvP than most others in the guild, and you have the gear for it rooting And ofc. you won't earn alot of DKP on it, but you will still earn a bit and be able to buy epic gems and stuff from the guildbank to improve your gear.

/Sessi

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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Renaut on Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:54 pm

Close the door - it's a bit chilly in here.

I understand the arguements for and against - but I have to agree with Marko. The amount of DKP is small enough to call it 'silly'. At the same time, it gives someone like me, who likes to PvP and often glances at our raiders in awe, a chance to earn some DKP with the knowledge that if I want more of the same I can take the DKP I've earnt in PvP and earn a decent amount raiding. Same as everyone else.

It's not a bad thing.

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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  aiten on Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:50 pm

Not same as everyone else you would have the chance to earn both pvp dkp and pve dkp. why should i be forced to pvp to be competative in dkp.

And im pretty sure serbiansword was against it...
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Renaut on Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:04 pm

I guess at the same time it could be said - why should I have to raid to be competitive?

Besides, it has already been examined and the amount of DKP you get from PvP isn't the same as you could potentially get from raiding. It's like being a part-timer.

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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  aiten on Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:28 pm

Why should you raid to be competetive for epics in raids?

...

Oh and your NOT a part timer thats the point. You dont raid you get dkp for doing pvp not doing casual pve.

To turn the officers argument on its head it is like me getting a 1000 honor points every time i complete a weeks raiding. Why would i get those points it makes no sense? Why would i get pvp rewards for doing pve?

A good example would be a warglaive of azzinoth just because people would go all in. Player A attends every raid and goes to kara on monday to further his gear through badges like any normal raider would. Player B likes raids and pvp and goes to all raids and attends the pvp event on monday. He earns 1 more dkp per week than player A. Neither spend dkp but when it gets to illidan player B wins because he pvps whereas player A has spent the time getting badges.

It just doesent make sense at all and i dont understand why people seem to think it is a good idea at all. all the arguments thrown at me have not convinced me otherwise one dot.

And sessi stop saying they are like guild points. DKP is used solely for the purchase of PvE gear and items that further PvE progress (Marks, Epic gems etc).
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  ╬pomoea on Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:12 pm

Im not totally sure what my oppinion in this is, but I understand Aiten's concerns.
We have not problems with ppl showing up for the Loot mobile, so why should there be problems with ppl showing up for the pvp raids? I know there was back when we started, but maybe it has changed.

Some ppl might be forced to join the kara runs to get bagdes for rr3 and those who dont can go farm dkp in bgs..
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Sessifet on Thu Sep 04, 2008 9:32 pm

Aiten wrote:
And sessi stop saying they are like guild points. DKP is used solely for the purchase of PvE gear and items that further PvE progress (Marks, Epic gems etc).

Well might be, but if it decided that they can be earned and spent in and on other stuff than raids, then I don't care what other guild uses their DKP for, then it is our rules that counts, and yes we can rename it to PLP if that takes the focus away from the definition of DKP on Wow-wiki.

Well you don't seem to be getting my points, I'm saying that DKP is used to make sure that the people who are helping the us progress gets rewarded for it, and PvP help us gear up as well as PvE, not as much, but then again the DKP reward compared to the PvE is alot less.

And no you getting 1000 honor for going on a PvE raid isn't the same, it would be the same as PvP'ers getting rep with Ashtongue Deathsworns.

And it is not the same items you get from badge as from PvP (atleast not for all classes), and you are going to buy more loot before the warglaives drop, so if you want to go all in on them, just make sure that the other rogues buys all the other items first, and you buy them later when they are cheaper. The 10-15 DKP you are going to earn from PvP untill WotlK is released isn't going to change that much. But I do think that the extra gear from PvP is, we really need to gear up fast to get there.

/Sessi

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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  aiten on Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:23 pm

And yet this doesent get over the general priciple that:

'You should not be rewarded pve item points for doing pvp'

it just makes no sense.

Oh and about pvp helping people gear up. As i have said before maybe each class has 1 or 2 items they should get through honor for their gear at most. That can be done in one or two days farming.

The pvp mondays should be about doing pvp to gain honor and have fun with guildies not about gaining dkp. I wont join but im sure serbiansword wouldnt appreciate 12 really enthusiastic pvp people in AB and then 3 people who would prefer to do pve but are doing it sub par because they arnt really interested.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Serbiansword on Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:35 pm

Aiten wrote:And yet this doesent get over the general priciple that:

I wont join but im sure serbiansword wouldnt appreciate 12 really enthusiastic pvp people in AB and then 3 people who would prefer to do pve but are doing it sub par because they arnt really interested.

If it's 12:3 ratio I'm more than happy Smile ... But, let's try not to make this PVP mondays just for mark/honor grind, let's try to have as much fun and laugh as we can no matter how much ppl join the raid Smile
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Renaut on Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:39 pm

But I actually do need marks. xD

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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Sagittarius on Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:15 am

Phew - long discussion, and many arguments pro and con.

I am all for DKP in PVP raids, and my arguments are more or less the same a Torsyg wrote in his reply - no need to repeat it here here

I think the best sollution would be a vote, but I will let that be up to the PVP officers to decide.

Cheers for input everyone

/S

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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  ╬pomoea on Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:34 am

AAAAARGGGHH! I dont know what my oppinion is scratch affraid Frantic Frantic Frantic
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Sessifet on Fri Sep 05, 2008 6:49 am

Yes there might only be a few items each person needs from PvP and the trinket, but it is still something that will help us, and the DKP bonus is alot less than the PvE raids.

And do you really think that 1 more DKP a week is going to change that much?
And do you really think that people will sign up for 3 hours of PvP and queueing for 1 measly DKP?

But if cannot convince you that PvPing will help us, then there is also the other reason we need DKP for PvP. Last time we did PvP events we had between 10-15 signups, ass you know this isn't enough to fill a BG, so telling people that if they were late or left before the raid was over, they would get less priority next time, didn't really help, because it doesn't matter if you have lowest priority if all gets in. So we do need some system to reward or punish people, and only giving out punishment does not work, then people will just refrain from signing up. And there really isn't any other way than using DKP.

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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  aiten on Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:42 am

Again its not the amount that i have a problem with it is the fact that you are giving any at all.

Anyway 10 - 15 people is enough to fill up a WSG for sure...

right im going to stop now. i agree it should go to a vote...
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Torsyg on Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:28 am

The problem is that you agreed it would be OK if they got some points they could use to buy e.g. void crystals and epic gems. This is the DKP. As Sessi wrote it was decided long ago that the DKP in PL should be money that could also be spent in the bank and everywhere else we deem necessary. It is just too much of a hassle to introduce another monetary system that can bu used for some of the same things just to avoid a maximum of 1 silly DKP per week. And it would also make no difference at all, since I am pretty sure that all active raiders spend more DKP on gems and stuff, than ┤they would be able to make doing PvP raids.

But lets make a vote.

/Torsyg
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Bufasu on Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:43 pm

Holy crap. One is gone for a day and suddenly we have 3 pages of discussion on dkp for pvp.

Here is my input for the discussion.

The primary reason for giving DKP for pvp events is because it would be unfair to only have a dkp penalty for not showing if you don't get something for showing up. As has been said by many the dkp penalty was added based on bad experiences with people being late or not showing which was a waste of the rest of people's time. Therefore came the dkp penalty and therefore came the dkp bonus.
Again the DKP bonus from participating is riducously small. As Sessi said you can gain a maximum of 15 dkp before wrath is released and DKP will be reset anyways.

As for dkp being awarded for progress. We all know everyone needs a pvp trinket to raid in MH. And some people like you Aiten apparently hates pvp very much but needs to get some done to get this stupid trinket. Luckily a lot of our more skilled pvpers will participate in a premade with you making your honor grind for your trinket easier and much more fun than doing it alone not knowing the mechanics in pvp. Thereby these nice pvpers who help YOU gear up for pve raids should get compencated for their work. I don't think 1 dkp is too much for that purpose.

And a history lesson. Back in the days when we were struggling with kara, gruul and maggy I remember the pvpers being on top of everything in those raids. Basically the more pvpers you had the greater the chance of succes we had. This of course was because of pvp gear being overpowered at that point in time. But the point is that pvpers were the main reason for any progress made back then.

Today things have changed with regards to gear. But I still will make the bold statement that people who know pvp well generally play better in raids than non-pvpers. I said it and it's ugly but it's also true. PVP makes you learn to play your class to the fullest. It makes you learn to survive unforeseen events and think fast under preasure. All of this is great abilities to have when progressing in raids. Take archimonde as a great example. We have spent weeks whiping on archimonde because certain people who are afraid of pvp don't know how to run out of the fire. Basically some people only know how to spam their frostbolt/firebolt/shadowbolt rotation and still use keys to turn around. This is just plain bad on a fight where you need to move around. I dare say that for some people a few raids spent in a battleground to learn to f***ing play the game would give so much more to our progress than them spending it spamming their dmg rotation on archimonde not seeing the fire and whiping us.

So basically pvp makes you a better player. Pve gives you better gear for pveing. For our current gear state in the guild we are generally geared way beyond the place we are atm with regards to raiding. What we need now to progress is better players. The fights we are facing can't be won just by buying phat loot for badges. You need to know how to move for archimonde. And you need to be able to handle many targets moving randomly for fights like vashj. Again my point is proven by the mere fact that although we are raiding black temple we still can't beat the end bosses of SSC and TK. Why? Because people can't play their classes for shit.

So maybe the pveers shouldn't be so hateful against the pvpers. Maybe they should open their eyes and face the fact that maybe they would learn something more from participating than 1 ridiculous dkp.

Sum of story. DKP for pvp raids is good. If anything it should be higher as pvping helps our progress at this point more than anything. Skill is everything badge loot is not.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Bufasu on Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:17 pm

I might have gotten a bit carried away in that last post.

Just to clarify. We have a lot of very very talented pve'ers in our guild who never play pvp. Praise them much. But we also have some self proclaimed harcore raiders who really aren't and those are the people I'm talking about in my post.

I find it troubling that I can come on a Mh raid - a place where I shouldn't ever raid with my gear. Full vengefull with two tier4 items and a ridiculous heroic belt and end in top 3 on the damage meters in the boss fights. When I look at the people below me they are in full badge loot and should as such beat me back to the stone age with their performance. The case however is that they don't.

So either the pvp gear is better than any badge gear you can get and we should award people for getting it or maybe I just learned something useful from playing it which shouldn't go unrewarded either.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Khadijah on Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:19 pm

The dark side of PVPing is ofc that you sometimes press your panic button G(PVPtrinket) instead of the tears of the godess... Khadijah now auto-disconnects everyime she sets her hoof in an arena or battleground, or even Strangelthorn Vale as a result ^^
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Staffy on Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:25 pm

First off, I'd like to say that I'm for DKP in PvP signup and duration situations.

Now, the benefits for playing both PvP and PvE are many and have been discussed, and also the uselessness for a raw PvPer to have DKP - but none of these things are really what this discussion is about.



The ONLY reason we give out, and potentially take away, DKP for PvP is, as said numerous times, to make sure people take this seriously and perform as they have promised, so they don't hinder the other 10-39 people that has showed up.



That's it... and as for the arguments for and against this, most of it's been said already, so I would like to take a simple approach to this:

To you who are against this: this is a strategy that has proven itself to work, and made people follow through more than before DKP was brought in to PvP events, so basically... can't we use it? Please? You don't have to agree, you don't have to think it's the best idea, but.. please? tulip
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Serbiansword on Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:37 pm

After the enlightment of Bufasu's long post I have to say that I've changed my mind giggle
So yes, gief DKP fro PVP.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  gnomolt on Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:41 pm

altough i am drunk atm, i am starting to feel that dkp might not be THAT bad for pvp raids. as long as we dont follow the thing bufasu said about MORE dkp to pvp'ers than pve''ers Smile

AS A side comment, what would i learn to do in pvp that will help my destro powers? Smile in pvp i dont spam shadowbolts, there i survive because i can take shit loads of dmg ^^ for most classes the pvp aspect of the class is 90% different than the pve aspect.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Dan on Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:55 pm

I've never really been fond of this idea. The only really valid arguement I can see for giving DKP for premades is to encourage signups for those events, but quite frankly i don't see it nessesary to have an all PL group, as long as there are enough people there to actually have fun playing as a group, isn't that t he whole point of these premades? A bit of pvp fun, if we have to lure people into signing for them with DKP then I'd say there really isn't much demand for the whole scheme anyway. It seems silly for me for us to be in a situation athat says : "We want to do Battleground premades, for fun. But not enough people sign, so we have to tempt them in with DKP". To me that seems to be almost admiting that not enough people do premades for fun, and that they'll only do it for DKP.

As for the argument that PvP'ers are the better raiders on the whole, i have to disagree. Neither me, Burne, Jonstrup, Cim, Saggi, Aiten, Staffy, Oscar, Toob, Gthrull, Sandy, Gnomalt, Fish, Jhoff, Giegler or carman have ever done much in the way of serious pvp, and these are the people that make up the raiding core of the guild. (these are just the people i remember off the top of my head, and if any of you have actually done any proper PvP just inform me and i'll tkae your name off the list giggle ) I don't doubt that PvP can up your game, but I don't see any evidence that pushing people into PvP with DKP rewards will improve the quality of our raiders, especailly if its only BG's.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  Khadijah on Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:07 pm

Dan, when I started farming BGs and playing arena I noticed my reflexes got SO much better. I have a different, better, sense of whats going on around me, and I think I owe that to the pvping I have done Smile

And if we raid to have fun, we can remove the signup bonus for that as well.
A full premade rocks the socks of a half premade since everyone will follow the RL. Many tactics involve one person satying behind and guard a base, and anyone not in PL might not want to care about that tulip

This morning I came up with a brilliant idea, that instead of 1 dkp youd get one mark of the illidari. ofc sessi soon reminded me that pvpers have no use for them.

Then I thought we should give people epic gems instead, but they have a higher value than 1 dkp and we prolly dont have enough in the bank, so thats no good either.
What do you think?
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  gnomolt on Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:32 pm

i still stand by the thing that ppl do premades for HONOR and marks. takes ages without a premade, so that should be enough to make ppl come.
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Re: DKP for PvP.

Post  ╬pomoea on Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:36 pm

i don't see it nessesary to have an all PL group
Well, the point of the premades is to have ppl on vent and non-guildies cant be on vent.


A bit of pvp fun, if we have to lure people into signing for them with DKP then I'd say there really isn't much demand for the whole scheme anyway. It seems silly for me for us to be in a situation athat says : "We want to do Battleground premades, for fun. But not enough people sign, so we have to tempt them in with DKP". To me that seems to be almost admiting that not enough people do premades for fun, and that they'll only do it for DKP.

The dkp is not to make more ppl sign up, it's to make sure those confirmed shows up, which was a problem we had before and the reason why dkp in pvp was implemented in the first place.


As for the argument that PvP'ers are the better raiders on the whole, i have to disagree. Neither me, Burne, Jonstrup, Cim, Saggi, Aiten, Staffy, Oscar, Toob, Gthrull, Sandy, Gnomalt, Fish, Jhoff, Giegler or carman have ever done much in the way of serious pvp, and these are the people that make up the raiding core of the guild. (these are just the people i remember off the top of my head, and if any of you have actually done any proper PvP just inform me and i'll tkae your name off the list) I don't doubt that PvP can up your game, but I don't see any evidence that pushing people into PvP with DKP rewards will improve the quality of our raiders, especailly if its only BG's.

I think you extremely wrong here. I dont want to point any fingers, but I've seen many pvp'ers who never get hit by "fire" in pve, while some of our top pve'ers are the top damage takers, because they turn and back on the keyboard. (things you see, when you start playing healer^^)
You dont nessecarily need to have done pvp to learn that, but having done so definately teach you that.


This morning I came up with a brilliant idea, that instead of 1 dkp youd get one mark of the illidari. ofc sessi soon reminded me that pvpers have no use for them.

Then I thought we should give people epic gems instead, but they have a higher value than 1 dkp and we prolly dont have enough in the bank, so thats no good either.
What do you think?
Bad idea. Really bad. Then they get the stuff for "free" ppl in pve farmed for them?
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Re: DKP for PvP.

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